Enjoy the podcast:
Well folks, its that time again! Round 2 of our Shroud Wars series once again pits Dale (Pro-Shroud side) vs. Alan (Shroud skeptic side) on the issue of the historical provenance of the Shroud of Turin. This time around, it will be Dale that has the burden of proof as I try to establish the claim that the Shroud of Turin is older than the Medieval period by centuries; at the very least it dates to the 6th century A.D. or earlier! Furthermore, Alan will attempt to show that the Shroud cannot be linked back to the historical Jesus (and/or a Jew from the first-century A.D.)- the pro-Jesus historicity case is entailed in the Anatomical Accuracies topic and as such it will be delayed until Round 3. You won’t want to miss this one!
The topics that will be covered in Round 2 include;
i) Contra-Medieval Evidence #1– The Argument from Art History/Numismatic Coins via the “Odd Features” & other Points of Comparison (6thcentury A.D. or earlier).
ii) Contra-Medieval Evidence #2– The 3 Physical Tests Conducted by Fanti (FTIR, Raman Spectroscopy and Tensile Strength of the Flax tests- combined c. 33 B.C +/- 250 years with a claimed 95% degree of certainty) & the Micro-Chemical Comparison Tests conducted by Ray Rogers (c. 250 B.C.-70 A.D.).
iii) Contra-Medieval Evidence #3– The Argument from the Link to the Sudarium of Oviedo (6th or 5th century A.D. or earlier).
iv) Pro-Historical Jesus Case– Dale establishes the Shroud can be linked historically to the historical Jesus (delayed until Round 3).
v) Contra-Historical Jesus Case– Alan establishes that the Shroud probably did not belong to the historical Jesus and/or a Jew form the first-century A.D.
Enjoy the show 😊
Recommended Sources (for further study):
1. General Dating & Other Shroud Sources;
a) See various presentations on all Shroud related topics (including multiple topics related to the Shroud’s history going back to Jesus)- includes papers, PowerPoint presentations and video presentations; see 2014 St. Louis conference material here = https://www.shroud.com/stlouis.htm & 2017 International Conference on the Shroud of Turin with many topics covered on all topics here = http://www.shroudresearch.net/conference-2017.html
Please, take some time to look into some of the sources from these Conferences- you will get a good idea of the who’s who of Shroud researchers today and get a glimpse or overview of the most up to date Shroud research 😊
b) As I have utilized and referenced Shroud historian’s Ian Wilson’s work and historical hypothesis, I wanted people to understand Ian Wilson is not the only game in town amoung Pro-Shroud historians/advocates, see Jack Markwardt provide his own historical hypothesis on the history of the Shroud as well = https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/stlmarkwardtpaper.pdf (76-page presentation paper) or see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceUB4Nia5BM&feature=youtu.be&list=UUSv7BD9sKjIcA24ct1Hz_Aw (VIDEO VERSION- approx. 1 hour) & a 27 min presentation on the Full History of the Shroud from Apostolic times onwards (including a possible allusion to the Shroud made in the NT book of Galatians 3) =https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIEcpDh_Cx0&feature=youtu.be and/or see Bob Rucker reference the Galatians 3 issue on p.2/6 article called “History of the Shroud of Turin” from here = http://www.shroudresearch.net/hproxy.php/One-Page-Summaries.pdf?lbisphpreq=1 . Also, he presents a historical explanation as to how the Shroud arrived in the hands of Geoffrey I in the 1350’s here = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpeEsYiICOs (covers the gap from 1204 in Constantinople to Lirey France in 1350’s when shown publicly for the first time since 4th Crusade).
UPDATE- THE JACK MARKWARDT 76-PAGE REPORT LINK DIDN’T WORK, CHECK OUT HERE = https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/stlmarkwardtpaper.pdf
c) Historian Daniel Scavone presents = “Constantinople Documents as Evidence of the Shroud in Edessa” =https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/stlscavoneabstract.pdf OR Youtube video = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gn80uTv6irU&feature=youtu.be&list=UUSv7BD9sKjIcA24ct1Hz_Aw
2. Art History & Numismatic Coins Argument;
a) Art History Argument; Firstly, in regards to the “Art History” argument specifically (comparing the Shroud to various art images/icons in paintings, etc- see = https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/stlemarinellipaper.pdf (33-page scholarly paper), OR PowerPoint with picture illustrations = https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/stlemarinellippt.pdf OR Video presentation = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cp5epABtOE&feature=youtu.be&list=UUSv7BD9sKjIcA24ct1Hz_Aw .
Also see Shroud historian Ian Wilson explaining his own historical hypothesis, C-14, etc. = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slTChxYLe0I (15 min video).
From the 2017 Conference on this argument see = https://www.academia.edu/34142677/The_Mandylion_in_Constantinople_-_Literary_and_iconographic_sources OR Video Presentation = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Gs6zEc_CfQ .
b) Numismatic Coin Comparison Sources;
See Alan Whanger’s work on this argument and results here = https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/sn069Feb92.pdf(starting on p.7-9) & https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/sn065Jun91.pdf(starting on p.8-9). Finally, see Giulio Fanti’s more recent research on this (on the 692-695 A.D. Justinian II coins) from = https://www.academia.edu/35675817/Numismatic_dating_of_the_Shroud_P23 (36 page report) or PowerPoint Slides = https://www.academia.edu/35675732/Numismatic_Dating_of_the_Shroud_S23 (POWERPOINT SLIDES) OR for 56 min YouTube video presentation see = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9glnk3yQvGk.
3. Sudarium of Oviedo;
NEW SOURCES (NOT INCLUDED IN PART 2 PODCAST): Presentation on Sudarium’s link to the Shroud of Turin = https://www.shs-conferences.org/articles/shsconf/pdf/2015/02/shsconf_atsi2014_00007.pdf (7-page article presented at 2014 Workshop on Advances in the Turin Shroud Investigation).
OLD SOURCES (INCLUDED IN PART #2 PODCAST):
A great BBC Documentary outlining the evidence from the Hungarian Pray Codex evidence, Sudarium of Oviedo (specifically discussed at approx. 36-40 min mark), other historical evidence not mentioned in my Podcast (for the sake of time such as the Man of Sorrow icons and the folding patterns on the Shroud) and the C-14 unreliableness/questionable nature amoung other things. This is a great Intro source = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpaZcVagTFk .
Also, for detailed study on the Forensic comparisons made between the Shroud and the Sudarium see the following 3 sources = https://www.shroud.com/guscin.htm (short write-up) or https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/sanchezveng.pdf (63-page report) and https://www.shroud.com/heraseng.pdf (a 17-page report).
Also, for information on the 2012 dirt (with Calcium) comparison tests between the Shroud, Sudarium and the Calvary site in Jerusalem = https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/stlbartapaper.pdf (9-pages) OR YouTube video presentation here = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pny7WGyq8ZU&feature=youtu.be&list=UUSv7BD9sKjIcA24ct1Hz_Aw (18 mins).
Lastly, for sources on the 2014 evidence using the Sudarium’s Pollen findings in comparison to the Shroud of Turin see the abstract = http://www.shroudresearch.net/hproxy.php/abstracts.html#19 & 35 min YouTube presentation here (first 24 mins on Forensic link of Sudarium to Shroud and covers the Dirt comparison as well, then Pollen findings starts at the 24 min mark onwards) = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_Lg6BRI2Gw .
UPDATE: Alan also took me to task on the rare blood group AB evidence, I mentioned it was confirmed by different researchers and Alan denied this saying it was done only by Baima Ballone, I knew this was wrong but couldn’t think of the name on the show and so I confirmed that Dr. Garza-Valdez also did some work on the AB blood as well in the late 1990’s, see Dr. Kelly Kearse summarize all of the evidence on the bloodstains up to 2014 (including the AB blood group data) in this 30 min video here = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21_h30_W_1E .
4. Pro/Contra- Historical Jesus (and/or First-Century Jew);
OLD SOURCES (PARTS #2 & 3 PODCASTS IN SHROUD SERIES);
Art documentary (from a Shroud skeptical perspective) detailing the historical development of Christian art and depictions of Jesus from its inception in the first century through to the late Dark Ages, is by Waldemar Januszczak and called “The Dark Ages: An Age Of Light – Part One”- see here = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4o1dc41r28 . *** Note that these pictures typically date to the 2nd-3rd-4thcentury A.D. or later therefore being much too late in themselves to be argued to have any historical connection to what the actual historical Jesus looked like. The NT itself makes little to no mention of Jesus’ physical characteristics (seeing the Christianity emerged from within a Jewish context such images would have been problematic with Jewish sensitivities related to possible idolatry).
Christian Apologist Dr. Gary Habermas articles on the Shroud in general and its historical Link to Jesus = http://www.garyhabermas.com/articles/J_Evangelical_Theological_Soc/Habermas_JETS_Shroud-of-Turin-and-significance.htm & https://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1031&context=lts_fac_pubs.
Robert (Bob) Bucklin; Forensic Medical Exert identifies the Shroud Man to Jesus- bear in mind I don’t want to go into too much detail as to the various anatomical findings found on the Shroud Man but as it is relevant to establishing the historical link, I wanted to provide this one source with the quote from Bucklin that I gave during the Podcast = https://www.shroud.com/bucklin.htm& for some of Bucklin’s bio info = https://shroudstory.com/2011/11/11/paper-chase-the-findings-of-robert-bucklin/ .
Textile Evidences: https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/ssi06part6.pdf (John Tyrer’s article Looking at the Shroud as a Textile- 11 pages); https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/ssi11part4.pdf (John Jackson article on the History of the Shroud based on the fold marks in the linen cloth- 24 pages) ; Side strip of cloth by Alan Whanger = https://www.shroud.com/adler2.htm (short write-up) ; Radiological studies of the Shroud cloth by Alan Whanger = https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/whanger.pdf (15 pages) ; Water Stain evidence and other textile factors = https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/aldo3.pdf (15 pages) & https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/aldo4.pdf (10 pages) respectively.
Barrie Schwortz article on “Five Reasons Why Some Christians are Shroud Skeptics”; This includes discussion on some of the historical objections raised by Shroud skeptics that we included in Part 3 but also has additional more theological objections which we shall address in other Podcasts in our Shroud series as skeptical “Counter-features” = https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/fivereasons.pdf .
Dirt & Pollen/Flowers, etc. Comparison Studies: https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/fantiveng.pdf (26-page report). Also 2014 evidence using the Sudarium’s Pollen findings in comparison to the Shroud of Turin see the abstract = http://www.shroudresearch.net/hproxy.php/abstracts.html#19 & 35 min YouTube presentation here (first 24 mins on Forensic link of Sudarium to Shroud and covers the Dirt comparison as well, then Pollen findings starts at the 24 min mark onwards) = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_Lg6BRI2Gw .
Pontius Pilate Coins: http://www.ohioshroudconference.com/papers/p20.pdf (Scholarly 7 page article by Dr. T. V. Oommen) or see short write up by Alan Whanger on his own main website on this = http://www.shroudcouncil.org/index.html – specifically under the “Jewish Coins” section (but see other interesting sections on other evidences we have mentioned as well as additional ones) = http://www.shroudcouncil.org/jewish-coins.html .
Contra-Pontius Pilate Coin Argument is Sketchy or Controversial: Contrast this with skeptical articles related to pattern recognition and issues with image enhancement techniques use to prove the Pontius Pilate coins (as well as other features such as the bones and teeth, etc. that we shall address later on in our Shroud series) with a paper co-authored by my friend and Shroud expert Barrie Schwortz as well = http://opac.bologna.enea.it:8991/RT/2012/2012_12_ENEA.pdf (16 pages) &/OR, https://www.academia.edu/3479042/Pattern_recognition_after_image_processing_of_low-contrast_images_the_case_of_the_Shroud_of_Turin (7 pages).
Contra- Alan’s claim that the position of feet being nailed on Shroud contradicts Yohanan archeological evidence = not true = https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/stlmaloneypaper.pdf .
Also, a good source on the Roman flagrum and/or scourging issue with the Shroud Man = https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/stlmanservigipaper.pdf . Or see the 25-minute video here = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkYtdV8Hcb8&feature=youtu.be&list=UUSv7BD9sKjIcA24ct1Hz_Aw .
Finally, here are some sources addressing the claim the Shroud Man’s long hair invalidates him as Jesus and/or a first-century Jew as fallacious, see here = http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/7061-hair or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaving_in_Judaism GARY HABERMAS REFUTES THIS = http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com/2014/12/does-long-hair-of-man-on-shroud-of.html . ALSO LONG HAIR IS BECOMING A PROPHET = http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2013/02/jesus-with-long-hair.html . Barrie Schwortz’s take on the Long Hair, see Objection #4 here = https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/fivereasons.pdf . Even fellow Shroud skeptic Hugh Farey backs me up vs. Alan in one of his comments on this issue here = https://shroudstory.com/2014/05/14/jesus-long-hair-again-and-again-and-again/ where he says “I think the answer is simpler still. Ordinary length hair (for men) was to the shoulder, while long hair (typical of women) was to the waist. ‘Long’ is a cultural relative”.
P.S. Having researched Alan’s claim about Josephus, I fail to find the proof he mentioned for Jews having to have short hair, the only reference was to Moses comparing him to Egyptian priests who had shaved heads, but the Israelite Levitical laws forbad this to differentiate themselves from this pagan practice, so Alan’s claims are wrong here (or at best I was unable to find them in the source he mentioned on the show)- search “hair” here = http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/apion-1.html .
UPDATED JOSEPHUS QUOTE ISSUE:
1. So, as per Alan’s advice I have re-listened to his part on Jews having “close-cropped hair” and searched for his sources- this appears to be where he is getting his info from as opposed to the actual primary sources like what I use = http://www.askelm.com/secrets/sec103.htm . I could be wrong on that and Alan is free to correct the record here on that front, but this seems to follow his presentation about Zeus and has the source references in precisely the same way Alan lists them in the Podcast.
Quote from Alan’s apparent source (again he can correct the record if I’m wrong but this looks to be right here) =
“The apostle Paul said it was a shame for a man to have long hair because the male is made in the image of God who is groomed with short hair (I Corinthians 11:3-16). It was a common characteristic of Jewish men to wear their hair in a close-cropped fashion. Eusebius copied the text of the Jewish historian Josephus in Against Apion I.22, para.173-4. In this section, Josephus was quoting an early Gentile author who gave some unique grooming styles of Jewish men. Josephus shows that the Jews were known, as Eusebius renders it, for “their close-cropped hair” (Preparation for the Gospel, IX.9, sect 412b)”.
2. In the actual quote in Eusebius himself (the primary source as opposed to an internet skeptic’s site),- it doesn’t refer to Jews in the first century A.D. at all, but is about some Jews during the time of the Persian king Xerxes in around the mid-400’s B.C. It is the description of Jews by a poet who was peeved they invaded Greece with the Persians.
Here is the quote in Eusebius from = http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/eusebius_pe_09_book9.htm#10 .
[JOSEPHUS] 10 ‘CHOERILUS also, an ancient poet, has mentioned the Jewish nation, and how they served with king Xerxes in his expedition against Greece. And thus he speaks:
“Next passed a nation wondrous to behold,
Whose lips pronounced the strange Phoenician tongue;
Upon the hills of Solyma they dwelt
By the broad inland sea. Rough and unkempt
Their close-cropped hair, and on their heads they wore
The smoke-dried skin flayed from a horse’s face.
‘Now that he spake this concerning Jews is evident from the fact that Hierosolyma lies on the mountains called by the Greeks Solyma, and that near it is the Asphaltic lake, which is very broad as the poet says, and larger than any of the lakes in Syria.’
Such then is this man’s testimony.”
3. What about in Jospehus himself- check out this (I can’t copy and paste it but primary source of verses 173-174 referenced by Alan along with a commentary by Josephus scholar on p.101-103 here = https://books.google.ca/books?id=LahEsjcfqTcC&pg=PA101&lpg=PA101&dq=CHOERILUS+josephus&source=bl&ots=WcenjFsfOm&sig=2EGj72Pp4-EYEuLVsDdpJBpnwL8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjbi5Hd6JjfAhUJ0IMKHb6wBTkQ6AEwAHoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=CHOERILUS%20josephus&f=false .
4. Also, the arch of Titus shows a Jew with long hair and beard as well unlike the others (2nd from the left).
Final Update: I noticed I forgot to include any sources for the 3 Physical Tests by Guilio Fanti so people can check out some details about it in this 14-page article here = https://www.matec-conferences.org/articles/matecconf/pdf/2015/17/matecconf_wopsas2015_01001.pdf .